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楼主: 罗珠达哇

[移民感悟] 精彩图文:温哥华高中文化老外之家

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 楼主| 发表于 2008-12-29 18:02:35 | 显示全部楼层
我提议:

将以上两照片提交给胡锦涛和教育部部长,
中国基础教育真是失败!!
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发表于 2008-12-29 18:09:39 | 显示全部楼层
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发表于 2008-12-29 19:44:13 | 显示全部楼层
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发表于 2008-12-29 20:07:53 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 罗珠达哇 于 2008-12-29 15:51 发表


那干脆住仓库得了 呵呵

瞧瞧,小罗别的都好,唯独喜欢极端的思考问题;如果总拿一个地方的短处去比另一个地方的长处,你就永远不会心理平衡。还有,我发觉小罗有时候跟一个孩子似的,喜欢大惊小怪小题大做.不过这样也好,说明年轻嘛.多么让人羡慕的年龄

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发表于 2008-12-30 01:26:01 | 显示全部楼层
西人自有西人的长处,要不然人家也不会这样发达。国人自有国人的不足,要不然也不会这样欠发达。据我所知,西人绝大多数,非常注重厨房和厕所的卫生,许多人把大量的业余时间都放到这两处的卫生上,不时地擦啊,抹啊,确实有不同的生活品位。国人多数热衷作秀,只图表面光,造成卫生死角,积重难返。许多政府不是也有这毛病吗?
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发表于 2008-12-30 01:54:48 | 显示全部楼层
有个疑问,加拿大人很讲究隐私权,俺上几个老师家玩,很想照却不敢照。

这些照片是否经过主人家同意发的?

个人的想法,若是冒犯了LZ, 请原谅!
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-12-30 05:07:01 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 未飘落的雪 于 2008-12-30 01:54 发表
有个疑问,加拿大人很讲究隐私权,俺上几个老师家玩,很想照却不敢照。

这些照片是否经过主人家同意发的?

个人的想法,若是冒犯了LZ, 请原谅! ...


这个就是以偏概全了,这个老外知道我要放到中国网站上,特别热情,多次来电话请我去拍照,而且为了我拍照,把圣诞树都摆出来,灯都打开了。

不要以偏概全,人,就是人,每个人都不一样,每个人和每一个别人的交情,也都不一样。
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-12-30 07:11:24 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 亦汐 于 2008-12-29 20:07 发表

瞧瞧,小罗别的都好,唯独喜欢极端的思考问题;如果总拿一个地方的短处去比另一个地方的长处,你就永远不会心理平衡。还有,我发觉小罗有时候跟一个孩子似的,喜欢大惊小怪小题大做.不过这样也好,说明年轻嘛.多么让人羡慕 ...


大惊小怪小题大做???
正是因为国人有这样凡事满不在乎的念头,民族到现在素质也不见提高。
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发表于 2008-12-30 08:12:45 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 罗珠达哇 于 2008-12-30 05:07 发表


这个就是以偏概全了,这个老外知道我要放到中国网站上,特别热情,多次来电话请我去拍照,而且为了我拍照,把圣诞树都摆出来,灯都打开了。

不要以偏概全,人,就是人,每个人都不一样,每个人和每一个别人的交情,也都不一样。 ...
所以,这个老外肯定也是为了拍照特别收拾得比平时更好一些。 楼主的那些用来对比的照片就更不具可比性。

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 楼主| 发表于 2008-12-30 08:12:53 | 显示全部楼层

美国女博士的回复

Kenny has a very nice apartment by my standards.  It is a pleasure to observe how clean it is.  I confess that my own apartment at present is filthy.  That is partly because I am preparing to move to a new one this weekend.  And it is partly a mess because we have had too many people and too many things crowded into too small a space for too long.  My roommates are not as neat as Kenny, but in truth it takes a great deal of labor to get this place looking clean.

Did anybody edit that at all for you?  It has crossed that final degree to native speaker quality.  In truth, it is really quite rare that anyone whose mother tongue is Chinese can do that without growing up speaking the language.  You do have a gift for language.

Sounds like you're doing well in Canada.  I'm glad you've found some things you appreciate about the place.  Canada seems nice in many ways, though I've never been there.

There are still some old haphazardly put-together structures where old people live that are not clean and neat here.  Years ago there were many of them, and many were occupied by soldiers who came over with Chiang Kaishek.  These places were dark caves with corrugated iron roofs that looked built without a plan.  One neighborhood like that was torn down years ago and replaced iwth a very large park, Da An Park.  It's Taipei's version of Central Park.  It really is pretty big and does offer some relief from the city, but it's still an urban park and you can hear the traffic on all sides.  

There are a few other neighborhoods where people clearly built their own houses, with narrow pathways running between homes on a mountain side. Everything seems to be irregular shapes and sizes.  These places are often a bit damp.  There is sometimes something charming about the cockeyed way things are laid out.  People saved one neighborhood like that called Treasure Hill from destruction - a bunch of artists started camping out there and refused to leave.  It became an artists community and eventually I think they got government support, so now people are given those spaces to use as studios.  

There are a few places here and there where you can still see the old style of store front, from the days when most people lived in the same building as their store.  Some of those places are pretty interested, packed up to the cieling with odds and ends that the elderly people inside think will be useful.  There's barely any room for the people, sometimes.  Things are stacked so high that it is like walking through a tunnel or maze to get into their space.  They sit in chairs watching the street.  Places like these are fairly exceptional.

Public bathrooms here are not always clean.  Women have that nasty habit of neither sitting on the toilet seat nor lifting it up, so they sprinkle pee all over.  You can tell a higher class establishment because you won't see this in the bathroom.  It's not clear to me that buildings here have heat.  It doesn't get very cold in Taiwan for long, so people just stick it out.  A cold day here is a rainy 15 degrees celcius.   

Taipei is much much cleaner than it was 15 or 20 years ago.  They have made getting rid of garbage terribly inconvenient - you have to listen for an electronic song broadcast by the garbage truck (usually Beethoven's Fur Elise) and then run down to meet the truck at a fixed point in time every day.  In other words, people no longer leave piles of garbage bags on a street corner stinking in the hot sun waiting for a garbage truck to come by, with dogs and cats picking at it.  The air pollution, while bad, is much better than years ago, as is the traffic.  Partly that's due to the nice clean bright subway they built.  Unlike New York, the subway is cleaner than the street level of the city.  You will find the New York subway shocking perhaps, as it is dilapidated and dirty by Asian standards.  The city of New York has not prioritized public transportation in its city planning for many decades and the result is clear.  

Many people seem to live in fairly clean apartments here.  I have seen many apartments that appear to have been renovated inside at some point.  I don't always like people's taste, but even twenty years ago I found the standard of living acceptable.  Men here chew binglang.  It's a big business.  But unlike one slum district in Hong Kong I have been to where there are red streaks of binglang juice marking the walls in stairwells, I don't see that here.  I don't know where the working class people spit their binglang juice, but I don't see it all over the street or anything.  It seems to be a working class thing.

Another sign of just how much things have changed here in 20 years is the condition of animals.  Before, you used to see a lot of mangy strays living off garbage.  They were afraid of people and didn't have enough hair.  Now you hardly see strays any more.  But you do see people walking around with little designer dogs in baby carriages dressed up in clothing.  It's so silly.  It's absolutely absurd that people think furred animals have to wear clothing in winter here.  There are an awful lot of larger dogs patiently tolerating t-shirts or sweaters as if this is a normal thing.  I guess it is emotionally satisfying to the people.  At the same time, there are now quite a few of animal rescue associations that pick up stray animals, neuter them, and find homes for them.  This remains necessary because other people continue to dump their pets when they become inconvenient to care for.  There is some old notion that if you dump the animal in the countryside it will be able to survive on its own.  People dump very old animals that nobody except a very, very kind person wants to adopt.  But the fact that there are people who are deeply concerned about the condition of pet animals is probably a good sign in terms of the standard of living of people.  Years ago you also used to see more live animals being killed in the markets and rather gory butcher stands.  Those seem less common.  Rather sterile, brightly lit supermarkets selling prepackaged food have become more common, although they are not always quite as clean as their American counterparts would be.  Outdoor markets used to stink here.  Now they don't really seem to stink - people don't leave vegetable or other garbage around.

That's the material infrastructure.  As for public access to institutions, that's hard for me to gauge.  I'm not in the public school system.  It seems to me that university campuses make everything available to their students that they can.  It doesn't seem too hard to get access to a library.  The most amazing thing to me is the healthcare system.  I have never had such free access to high quality healthcare before.  It is so inexpensive.  Everyone is covered - there are almost no people without insurance like in the US.  Unlike the privatized US system which is fragmented, inconsistent and has much higher adminstrative costs, there is only one level of insurance here.  It covers a great deal and gives people free choice of any doctor they want to see.  You can see a traditional doctor or a western one.  You don't have to wait a long time for appointments -- it's quite efficient. The quality of care in large hospitals seems pretty good.  I am grateful all the time for the kind of medical care I can get here.  It's really too bad that there's almost no possibility of the US getting rid of its private insurance system to adopt the more economical Taiwan style single payer system.  Canada also has a single payer system.  I'm not sure if it's as efficient as Taiwan's or not.  

Another thing that changed radically here is politics.  People make constant use of their right to free speech on the radio and in the news.  In person, many people here in the north prefer to avoid confrontation and conflict on political topics, since it can get heated.  In the south, people are quite anti-KMT and very vocal about it.  They seem more willing to engage in conflict behaviors.  The tone of political exchange can be unpleasant or distressing at times.  It's pretty clear, however, that many people value the right of free speech and the right to vote.  I don't think they'll be willing to give that up any time soon.

Another aspect of political change here is the strong expectation that government will not be corrupt.  People are really offended by embezzlement or corruption on a scale that would be hardly worth considering in the US.  The former president embezzled a few million USD.  A sum that might buy one or two of John McCain's seven houses.  A sum that would pay for the American military in Iraq for less than one week.  But people are outraged about corruption, even when it is only a matter of 40,000USD of coupons for use at a department store.  Part of the problem is that things that are now considered corruption were just standard operating procedure in the old KMT days. New procedures for how political parties should handle funds have not been clearly established. One of the ironies of all this is that the desire for impartial, objective rules that apply the same to everyone in the name of fairness - which often translates into a new inflexibility about rules - probably tends to make life harder for people without any powerful connections or lots of money.  Corruption was the way government operated under the old KMT, in my opinion, on a scale that utterly dwarfs anything for which politicians are now being prosecuted.  But the fact that they can prosecute a former president through the legal system, debate it on television every day, and maintain a stable society throughout is rather interesting.  In the United States, we are not capable of prosecuting a former president.  No matter how objectively justified, I just don't think that politically it will ever happen.  I'm sorry about that.  I wish they would charge Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and the other major players in the Bush administration who made torture permissible with war crimes.

Stefani
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发表于 2008-12-30 10:46:18 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 罗珠达哇 于 2008-12-30 07:11 发表


大惊小怪小题大做???
正是因为国人有这样凡事满不在乎的念头,民族到现在素质也不见提高。

我不惊奇并不是因为自己也是如此;我不小题大做并不是满不在乎!!

你不是一个信佛之徒么?佛徒不是只是吃素这个表面现象去做秀给人看;应该是慈悲为怀,以自己正确的实际行动去感化周围的不正现象,而不是喜欢截短,又没有说服力去制止或者有能力去改变他们。

如果每个人都以身作则,这个世界都相当的美好了~~~~

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发表于 2008-12-30 11:13:26 | 显示全部楼层
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发表于 2008-12-30 12:58:29 | 显示全部楼层
好的东西就要去学习,我觉得这个和全民素质有关系,和你是什么文凭学历真的没多大关系。我感同身受
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发表于 2008-12-30 13:45:22 | 显示全部楼层

为罗珠说几句公道话!

在枫情里,罗珠是我比较欣赏的一位:他真实、不矫饰,敢于自我否定和反醒,有时候可能会让许多人感到不舒服,这里我想为罗珠辩护几句:
1、我想罗珠在认识到西文文明的时候,赞美之辞溢于言表,这应该是每一个置身于西方文明中的人的正常感受,只是小罗说出来了,而许多人不承认这种落差,更有甚者可能意识不到这种落差,这就让人无话可说了。
2、罗珠在这里说出来,并与大家分享,我想并不是想向大家表示他有多“崇洋媚外”,给大家抨击他的理由,我想他的初衷是希望能唤醒同胞们对生活理解上的缺失,所以,大家也大可不必对他如此夹枪带棒,如果对他的讲述嗤之以鼻,或者不以为然,那就看看就算了,并不需要去辨论,事实上西人比中国人都更会生活、更懂生活,更热爱生活,这是一个不争的事实,如果大家能够意识到这点,赞同这种生活理念的大可受到启发后,去重新检视一下你过往的生活,然后尽情地营造和享受你未来的生活,这样我们才能提高。
3、在北京,象小罗所发照片的那种生活状态以及女生宿舍,真的很普遍,哪怕是现在。甚至大多数先富起来的人们,可能事业有成、腰缠万贯,可能开百万名车,随从前呼后拥、天天歌舞升平,但却不懂生活、对家缺乏理解、对生活缺乏感觉。我们欣赏的不只是西人这些生活中的细节,更欣赏他们的生活态度。当然,我们只能说这是西人社会的一个主流现象,也会有例外,在这里,大家也不必太过咬文嚼字,对小罗睚眦必报。
4、希望看到小罗文字的人,去思考的是:我们是不是真的有差距,在自己未来的生活中加以调整和提升,而不是一味地去抨击和辩护,这没有意义,中国近年的发展,世界有目共睹,但我们不能盲目自大,因为迅速发展让我们来不及自我检讨,以为我们已经重新跻身文明国家的行列,但事实上,我们现在只是在对外形象上有了一个漂亮的外表做掩饰,社会的劣根性、公共建设的溃乏、社会机制的不便利等各各方面以及国民教育上的缺失,仍然需要长远的时间来慢慢改变。我们不能有这种暴发户的心态,以为世界都在我们的脚下了,听不得半点杂音,我们更需要地是认清自己的不足,来不断地自我调整和提升。
5、关于对家居的认知,每个人都有不同的理解,虽然我也觉得小罗的家里看起来真的有些拥挤和细碎,但我觉得无可厚非,大家也大可不必以此来对他进行攻击,甚至升华到什么信仰等等的,这真的有些小家子气,也是典型的中国式思维的狭隘,其实这只不过是每个人对家居摆饰的爱好,有些人喜欢极简主义,有些人喜欢家里温馨、丰富。但事实上,极简主义、空间的奢侈大多是室内设计师们为标榜他们的个性完成的一个作品,我也不太认为这真的适合真正的家居生活,我个人比较喜欢家居摆饰丰富一些,但要有主题和节奏感,可能每一个摆饰对于你的家来讲都有一个故事,可以长久地品味,而且对于大多数家庭而言也都是只能选择在小空间里展示自己的家居情趣、没有那么多的空间来让他们挥霍。小罗的家让人感受到他对家的热爱、生活的热爱,这在中国人的家庭中是比较少见的,我觉得这让人感动,这种生活态度是值得大家认同和赞赏的。而大多数中国人的家居生活中,忽视摆饰,有的是不懂得如何摆饰,有的只在乎基本的生活必备,认为摆饰是不必要的花费,其实家里面角角落落的各种小品才是主人的情趣和品味的象征。
以上这些话只是希望大家在对待小罗的文字时,从另一个角度去思考一下,宽容和接纳本身就是一种文明的表现。

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发表于 2008-12-30 13:56:46 | 显示全部楼层
觉得楼上的几位女同胞的评论比较中肯.
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发表于 2008-12-30 14:01:50 | 显示全部楼层
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发表于 2008-12-30 14:07:26 | 显示全部楼层

回复 74楼 的帖子

你仔细从头到尾看看哦,哪里有夹枪带棒太过咬文嚼字,对小罗睚眦必报?一开始不都在赞扬他么?只是有点小小不同视角跟LZ交流,反而是LZ视角狭隘没有宽容接纳罢了。

呵呵,共勉!
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发表于 2008-12-30 14:09:38 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 lotusleaf 于 2008-12-30 08:12 发表
所以,这个老外肯定也是为了拍照特别收拾得比平时更好一些。 楼主的那些用来对比的照片就更不具可比性。


如果没有事先知会,说不定没有那么整齐.

就象一个人去照相馆照相,谁都会稍微加以修饰一番.
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发表于 2008-12-30 14:19:03 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 罗珠达哇 于 2008-12-30 05:07 发表


这个就是以偏概全了,这个老外知道我要放到中国网站上,特别热情,多次来电话请我去拍照,而且为了我拍照,把圣诞树都摆出来,灯都打开了。

不要以偏概全,人,就是人,每个人都不一样,每个人和每一个别人的交情,也都不一样。 ...


对, 不要以偏概全. 不管是讨论拍照的问题, 还是讨论中国人爱不爱干净的问题, 都不要以偏概全. 人,就是人,每个人都不一样. 老外跟老外不一样, 老中跟老中也不一样,

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发表于 2008-12-30 14:20:23 | 显示全部楼层
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